Dallas-Ft. Worth Metro Golden Retriever Club Lawsuit

Sherri:  July 18, 2005, uh, Hearing with Alan and Ellen Meyers…

Lynda: Ok, This is the procedure how it’s going to run tonight… um… Debbie will make her statement first, I will give her 15 minutes to make her statement… after she’s done, um, she can also call her witnesses, uh, witnesses will remain outside, they won’t be here during the general discussion… okay?    Um…

Alan:  Can I ask a point of order about that?

Lynda:  It’s Robert’s Rules Of Order. 

Alan:  Ok… so if the witnesses um… if some of the Board members are as you indicated, are witnesses, uh, then I guess my question is, will they be expected to stay outside as well?

Lynda:  Yes, she, she’s (inaudible)

Alan:  Ok, does that also mean then that those members that um, that the witnesses, the Board who are witnesses as well as the person preferring the charges as, um, will um, remove themselves from the voting?

Lynda:  They don’t have to if they don’t want to.  Roberts Rules Of Order

Alan:  If they’re not going to be in here then (inaudible) how can they

Lynda:  Roberts Rules Of Order…

Alan:  … vote on (inaudible)

Judy:  I have removed myself from voting. 

Linda:   Judy has.

Judy:    I already told you.

Linda:    …and, that’s up to Debbie if she chooses not to or not but Roberts Rules Of Order says... (inaudible) can vote.  She’s aware of everything because she’s bringing the charges… so… she’ll know what’s going on… so… if she chooses to, she can.  (inaudible)  that we can do about that because we’re going to run the meeting according to Roberts Rules Of Order.   Ok?

Alan:  OK

Lynda:  All right… um…  then you, Alan will be given fifteen minutes to um… to do the same thing… present your information… after that… after the opening statement the panel will have the opportunity to ask questions…

Alan:  Um, I guess I have a question with regards to that because there’s nothing in, in the… um… in the letter that received… there’s nothing indicated that there would be a time limit that I would have to be able to present my case.

Lynda:  We’re running it according to Roberts Rules Of Order and we only have this room until nine thirty.

Alan:  How, how long we have this room is not my problem, I…  (inaudible)

Lynda:  Alan, I’m going to be running the meeting and the choice, I will allow you to speak as long as you stay, stay to the, to the subject …

Alan:  well…

Lynda:  if you do not stay on the subject I will give you one warning… if you don’t, after one warning I will stop the discussion and the meeting will be over with and the Board will make a vote.  Ok?  So I, I want this to stay strictly to what we’re talking about here, I don’t want anything else coming in… we’re going to talk about what you got the letter about and that’s all.  Nothing else…

Alan:  as long as (inaudible)

Lynda:  Nothing else, ok Alan?  Everything that’s on here and that’s all, nothing else.  I won’t allow you, or  anybody else to detour from what we’re here for.  Ok?

Alan:  I guess the problem that I have is the time frame because there’s nothing mention  time frame, the preparation that I’ve done was not for… having to re… be within a 15 minute time frame.

Lynda:  All right Alan.  Whatever it takes you to (inaudible) discussion, I will allow as long as you stick straight to the subject.  The minute you veer off, I’m going to give you one warning.  And then you won’t be allowed to continue… ok?

Alan:  (inaudible) well that’s not what you just said a min, a minute ago.

Lynda:  I did but all right… right… you said that you needed more time, I’ll give you more time as long as you stay to the subject.  And I’ll give you one warning if you veer off, ok?  So we’ll stick straight to the subject, we’ll stay, exactly what you got the thing for and that’s all.  There is nothing past,  present, anything else that’s going on will not be part of this meeting.  That’s… anything else (inaudible)… ok?   So after you talk then  the panel will be allowed to ask questions, the panel will ask questions directly… they won’t talk to each other, they’ll ask you and that’s all.  One person will speak at a time, if there’s any questions, the questions will come through me.   Cause I don’t want any arguing, I don’t want the procedure to get out of hand.  Ok?

Alan:  If I have questions of the Board, who do I address them to or do I have to…ask…

Lynda:  You address them… to the… to each Board member and nobody else is allowed to speak except for the Board member you’re talking to.  There’s not going to be any…

Alan:  (inaudible)

Lynda: … cross conferencing with anybody.

Alan:   …I’m not suggesting that but if I have questions again with regard to the Board as a whole, I have to ask it of each individual person?

(background inaudible Board discussion)

Lynda:  No, you ask me (inaudible)

Rita:  (inaudible) need to direct all of your conversation (inaudible)

Alan:  Ok.

Lynda:  All right.  Ok… um… so we’ll let Debbie start…

Debbie:  Ok… at the Board meeting on the Tuesday in question which I believe was four nineteen and…

Rita:  point of order  (inaudible) read the charges

(inaudible group talking at once)

Lynda:  (inaudible) all right… these are the charges that were sent to you and Ellen… the first charge was knowingly and intentionally violating the Board directive prohibiting the listing with puppy… with Puppy Referral and by doing so potentially causing liability against the Club for referring prospective puppy buyers to a puppy with known health problems without full disclosure.  Number two, violation of the Puppy Referral Guidelines contacting the Puppy Referral Volunteer directly and coercing her into adding the puppy to  the  list without prior approval of the Puppy Referral Committee.  Number  three,  failure  to disclose that the puppy was on the Puppy Referral list due to their violation of Puppy Referral Guide… number four failure to disclose that they were receiving phone calls regarding the subject puppy as a direct result of the puppy being on Puppy Referral list.  Five, threatening legal action against the Board and Club for not permitting the subject puppy to be listed without full disclosure.  Six,  intentional harassment of Club members.

Debbie:  Ok…at the Board meeting um, that week, Alan said that they sold all their puppies and to take him off Puppy Referral

Alan:  What was the date that you mentioned

Debbie:  four nineteen I believe… no, the Board meeting was April 12.  And… at that time  I .. we took him off but his listing had expired on April 16^th of oh five.

Alan:  (inaudible)

Debbie:  And… al, also that day, later that, early Wednesday morning I talked to Linda  Marquart  because she had just realized she was on Puppy Referral and didn’t want to be on it anymore and did not give her the Meyer’s not, litter because she had said, he had said he wanted off.  Ok Wed evening I spoke with a Club member about her litter, she told me about a man who had just returned a puppy to the Meyer’s with serious health issues.  After I finished my call with her, I checked my messages and found a message from Alan wanting to re-list the puppy.  Since the Club had just recently been addressing liability issues and putting um, disclaimers on our website I called Judy, told her what I knew and that Alan was now wanting to re-list the puppy and she said to hold off listing it until we could check things out and poll the Board.  At her suggestion the next morning I sent Alan an email asking why the puppy returned, was it just an unrealistic owner or what… if it was an unrealistic owner we wanted to warn other Club members who had puppies.  There was no response from that.  After being informed by Judy that the puppy could not be listed, he called Linda Marquart and insisted, would, would not get off the phone until she agreed to re-list his puppy knowing full well that he had been told by the Board he could not re-list and in addition to that on his message to me asking to re-list the puppies he wanted to verify when his listing expired and find out how much it was to re-list so he knew he was right there at the border.  So knowing that he was probably owing an additional payment and also that Judy had informed him the puppy could not be listed, he bullied her into re-listing it anyway.  And that’s all I have and Judy I would like to call as my witness.

Alan:  Point of order… that any cross that I do I wait until…

Lynda:  You wait until…

Alan:    …  she’s done with all of…

Lynda:  Absolutely. 

Alan:  Ok…

Lynda:  and then (inaudible) to address anything

PAUSE

Lynda:  Ok, Judy you will be asked to give your um, your information that you have.

Judy:  How I found out about the puppy being listed?

Alan:  Well, again I… I… point of order… if she’s your witness, isn’t Debbie needing to question her…

Lynda:  (inaudible)

Alan:   …  about what the uh ..

Lynda:  (inaudible) give her testimony (inaudible)

Alan:     …   then she is not necessarily a witness for Debbie then, she’s just a witness in general?

Lynda:  She’s Debbie’s witness.  Debbie doesn’t have to cross examine her, all she has to do is give her information that she has. 

Debbie:  actually it’s her information, what Judy has.

Judy:  Yes… uh… have an email, Puppy Referral five seventeen… which was a Tuesday… good morning… you were next on the list… all I know is available your eighteen month old, Meyer’s eleven week old puppy male and Dick Caldwell’s puppy.  And then I have uh, her…

Sherri:  Who is that email from?

Judy:  This is Melissa Kato.  I have her sheet where she did send to you puppy buyers… so I contacted Debbie via email, I have never and she wrote back said I never listed the puppy.  I guess you would have to call back each person on Puppy Referral to figure out who started listing it… the next person in line after Melissa Kato was Bev Wallace… I have an email from Beverly Wallace saying hi Judy I was on Puppy Referral the week of May 2^nd, I did refer at least one caller to Ellen and Alan who I was told by Patti Williams via voicemail that they had one puppy male available, I do not recall the name of the individual referred however, Thanks, Bev… the next person on the list was Patti Williams, I got an email from Patti Williams…I was taking phone calls for DFW Puppy Referral for the week of April 25^th, I did refer several people to Ellen and Alan Mey Meyer for one male retriever puppy signed Patti Williams here is the list…she lists the people and uh who she referred them to.  Then I get to Linda Marquart   during the week of April 18^th  to April 24^th  I took calls for Puppy Referral as a volunteer with Golden Retriever Club, I was called by Alan Meyer during the week and informed by him that he had one mal, ma,  one male puppy available for sale and should be listed.  Then there is a letter from Linda…. (pause)… and this is the one where she says she got a call from Alan Meyer in an agitated tone, he said that he had a puppy available he indicated to me that he was left off the list, that I need to make sure that in my calls I tell the hotline calls about this puppy.  I told him that I would include this puppy when I return calls on Saturday morning.  He was abrupt with me and did not even leave his phone number I did tell a few people about the puppy but had very few calls at the end of the week.  If you have any questions you can call me… and this was back uh… on… (inaudible) the timesheets on that is.. Friday April 22^nd.  (inaudible) Do you want me to continue…

Lynda:  Yes.

Judy… Um… this is the puppy in question that the Board had said that was not going to be listed with Puppy Referral.  You were getting calls the entire time… uh… and I know as you’ve stated in the past that you always ask people where they got their referral… was it from breeders.net or from the Club.  So you were quite aware that the puppy was still listed on Puppy Referral and still threatened to sue the Board.

Pause

Lynda:  Ok… anything else?    Is there anybody on the panel who (inaudible) they want to ask questions? 

Rita:  I have one ques

Lynda:  Of  Judy…

Rita:  I have one question of Debbie…

Debbie:  Ok…

Rita:  Could you give me the date again as to when Alan requested the re-listing… I have the, a Board meeting on four twelve

Debbie:   (inaudible) It actually was the next Wednesday, the April 20^th

Rita:  The 20^th, thank you Debbie.

Lynda:  Anybody else?  Ok…

Alan:  Is it my turn to talk?

Lynda:  Your turn to present your side Alan…

Alan:  I… I don’t have an opportunity to cross examine first the… the.. their

Lynda:  No, lets hear your side of it first , you’re not allowed to cross examine the witness.

Alan:   Oh, I believe the letter states I am…

Lynda:  (inaudible) all right all right all right… go ahead…

Alan:  Ok.  Just want to follow the…

Lynda:  …go ahead.

Alan :  … the rules that as they’re supposed to be followed.  Um…  I just want to clarify Debbie you indicated that .. the listing was due to expire on April 15… ok… you received a call, an email from Judy um, that presented a proposal to Ellen and I whereby Judy indicated that there are 10 days remaining on the…

Debbie:  We agreed to give you 10 days yes

Alan:  Okay…

Judy:  Right  it was just agreed by the Board give 10 days

Debbie:  Because we not sure I mean Linda… we don’t know if the person, I didn’t check to see if the person before Linda had been uh, referring to you, Linda waited until I didn’t talk to her until Tuesday morning, I mean until Wednesday morning so we don’t know if you were actually…

Alan:  I’m sorry, I guess I need to point out Judy’s email it does indicate here, I’ll read you, it says refund the original listing of  $50 even so the, so.. excuse me, even so the litter was carried for a 6 and a half week period during which you were able to place all available puppies.  So it is listed on here, it doesn’t say the Board decided to extend the…

Debbie:  (inaudible)

Alan:  …uh whatever, it indicates that it was a six and a half week period. 

Debbie:  Okay…

Alan:  … so obviously it wasn’t due to expire then.

Debbie:  …in a week and a half it was and we’ve got a four week timeframe

Alan:  Well I’m just pointing out you indicated a time frame and I have evidence to contradict that.   Um…

Judy:   I… do you want this, this uh, email that I have where Ellen says that they no longer need Puppy Referral…

Debbie:  Yeah, what date was that on… that’s right she (inaudible) said (inaudible) before Alan said (inaudible)

Judy:  Um-hmm

Debbie & Judy: (inaudible, talking to each other)

Debbie:  … because Ellen had told me  at TKC she wanted them off and then you said you wanted them on and then Ellen emailed Judy….

Judy:  I have it right here…

Debbie:  Ok, there we go…

Judy:… its dated April 5^th… uh… I actually need to take my listed litter off Puppy Referral I don’t have anything available now, all reserved after this weekend except for the girls who are not for sale till I grow them out. 

Debbie:  There we go, there’s the 10 days.

Alan:  How is that ten days?

Debbie:  April 5^th to April 16^th gives you 10 days…

Ellen:  No no no

Alan:    No, the… well I’ll, I guess I’ll address that in my, when, when I present later, I just want to finish the cross first…

(Inaudible in background)

Ellen:    well I said I really to, I’m not telling you to take it off!

(inaudible in background)

Ellen:  I did not say (inaudible)…

Judy:  … then we have a letter uh… in the Board minutes…

Alan:  I’m not questioning about that you were told that we…(inaudible) told … (inaudible)

Judy:   April the  12^th..

Lynda:  Wait a minute (inaudible).

Judy:  On April the 12^th Alan came into the Board meeting and told Debbie Allen that all of his puppies had been placed the litter listing with Puppy Referral.  Except  the bitches that he was keeping for now.  That was April 12^th.  At  the Board meeting…

Alan:  Well, the key words are also for now… and

Judy:  No…

Alan:  (inaudible)

Lynda:  (inaudible) you said  the bitches…

Judy:  the bitches that you were keeping.

Lynda:  you said all the rest of them were placed.

Judy:  … and I don’t believe the puppy we’re talking about …

Alan:  I’m not questioning…

Judy:  … is don’t talk over me… I don’t believe the puppy we’re…

Alan:  Well..

Judy:  … talking about is a bitch.  (inaudible)

Alan:  That is Correct.

Judy:  So it is really not even (inaudible) relevant

Alan:  I’m not questioning the fact that you were told that um… that we did suspend the listing at that point.  All I’m… all I wanted to point out here is that the listing was not due to expire on April 15^th, the listing based upon the email I have from Judy that it was determined that there was still, that it was only listed for 6 and a half weeks so therefore there was still one and a half weeks remaining on the listing.  That’s the point I’m bringing out.  

Judy:  And the relevancy is…

Alan:  well, I’ll get to that when I do my presentation, right now I’m just going through the, the

(background inaudible Board discussion)

Alan:  cross and what was said.  Um…

Judy:  and let me just say, uh, any emails from me is from the Board.  When I sign Judy Word DFW President it’s the Board, this (inaudible) to clarify.

(background inaudible Board conversation)

Alan:  Um, I want to introduce…

(inaudible Board background talking)

Molly:  according to this in the email, it was, you had a choice of taking one or the other and it sounds like you’re combining both of them…

Alan:  No, I don’t…

Molly:  Well, you were talking about the original listing fee of fifty dollars in the six and a half week timeframe… or… it says that… we could contin…

Alan:  I believe its in the same options…

Molly:  No, it says or…

(inaudible background Board talking)

Lynda:  It says or…

Alan:  It says A is just re-listing the puppy and then or… and at the top of the next page option B, which is refund the original listing fee of $50 even though the litter was carried for a six and a half week period.  So I’m just pointing out that the litter was only that… here I have confirmation from the Board since it came from Judy… that the litter was only carried for a six and a half week period.

Debbie:  Ok…

Sherri:    but we you voluntarily cut it off, it’s off.

Alan:  Show me in the Bylaws where it says that.

Nancy:  That was my question, so if you say you want to discontinue the listing, then can you pick it up at any time for another week and a half down the road

(inaudible. all talking)

Judy… (inaudible ) called a re-listing..

Ellen:  No it’s not but ok…

Alan:.. Ok, I, we’ll, I guess I’ll  address that in my portion…

(Board inaudible in background)

Alan:   …again I want to go back to the cross (inaudible)

(Board inaudible in background)

Alan:  Ok… um

(Alan & Ellen background talking)

Alan:   …oh um…. I’ll get to that when I cover my part,  I guess that’s it

(Board background  talking)

Judy:  I said this letter dated um… the email four twenty-seven it has a huge or in all caps

(inaudible background talking)

Alan:  correct, what I’m referencing is after the or… all I am referencing is after the or.

Lynda:  Ok.

Alan:  I guess that’s…

Lynda:  Any more questions?

Alan:  No more questions at this point.

Lynda:  Ok

(Board inaudible background talking)

 

Alan:    I do have uh…

(Board inaudible background talking)

Alan:… I do have plans to call Judy as a witness for me as well…

Judy:  Uh… I didn’t get any notice that you were going to call me as a witness…

Alan:  I……didn’t realize I needed to give you notice when, since I, you were, planned to be here at this Board meeting…

Judy:  Well…

Lynda:   (inaudible)You can’t ask Judy to be a witness for both sides…

(inaudible, speaking over each other)

Alan:  Why…

Lynda:…Why, because  because she’s already the witness on this side…

Alan:  I guess (inaudible)

Lynda:   You can cross examine her but you can’t call her as a witness

Judy:    …maybe you should have, you should have called me up and let me know

Lynda:  you’re allowed to cross examine her but you’re not allowed to call her as a witness.

Alan:  fine, then I am not done with my cross.

Judy:  Ok

Lynda:  Ok

Alan:  Um… Judy … you… indicated… um… or… well, not true… you indicated and Debbie indicated that, with regard to… uh… with regard to the timing, do you recall during our conversation on Friday night, April 22^nd, one of the first things I, that prompted that call is that I said to you I just got off the phone with Linda Marquart and learned that our puppy is not listed?

Judy:  No, what you told me was… that you’ve been trying to get a hold of Debbie.

Alan:  And I told you in… considering the fact that Debbie has no returned any of my phone calls I decided to contact Linda Marquart who was the volunteer that week, directly, to inquire if the puppy was on.  Otherwise I had no reason to contact you at that point.  That was the… that was the reason for my call to you.  And that’s when you then informed me that I should be receiving a letter from the Board… that the Board had decided…

Judy:  … Yes I remember telling you…that I was, that you would be receiving a letter from the Board…

Alan:   …Okay.  Can you tell me when that Board discussion took place… with regard to, that would have prompted the letter to me in indicated that the puppy was not going to be listed?

Judy:  When the first discussion of the Board was?  It was when…

Alan:  Yes…

Judy:  …we received uh… it would have been Thursday, April 21^st when I spoke to BJ Elliot and received a email from him, documentation.  Saying  what was wrong with the puppy.

Alan:  Okay… and… if that

(background discussion)

Alan:  … if that’s evidence that you’re um, referring to then I believe I have the right to see that.

Judy:  I’m not referring to this because it has nothing to do with the charges that are being brought up… the charges that are being brought up says nothing about…  um… BJ Elliot.  There’s nothing about…

Alan:  I believe…

Judy:  (inaudible)

Alan:  … I believe the question of liability…

Judy:  No…

Alan:   …  (inaudible)

Judy:    …I will not show you a copy of the letter.  And I told you that before.  And…  if you will see that…

Lynda:  It, it can’t’ be brought out because its private disclosure and we didn’t al… we didn’t ask Elliot for it to be brought out.

Judy:  The issue is not if the puppy has health issues…

Lynda:  (inaudible) telling you that (inaudible)

Judy:  …in this letter.  The complaint is not that the puppy had health issues.

Lynda:  No, that’s not what the complaint is about at all…

Judy:  No…

Alan:  Okay, well…

Lynda:   …it has nothing to do with health issues.

Alan:  … I guess… then what Debbie has presented I guess I don’t yet see… where she has presented the liability to the Club.

Debbie:  The issue is that you went behind the Board’s back to list the puppy.  That is what the charges are that are being brought. 

Alan:  Well…

Sherri:  The liability comes in when..

Debbie:… the liability only came up because I wanted to check with the Board before I re-listed the puppy since I had knowledge of why the puppy was returned.  And we had just discussed liability in the previous Board meeting and that is why…

Alan:  The first charge clearly references causing, potentially causing liability against the Club.

Debbie:  That’s right because …

Alan:  …(inaudible) referring to (inaudible)…

Debbie:  … the puppy was listed.

Alan:  … obviously this goes, that charge references liability… so if the basis for liability is the letter from Mr. Elliott, that’s why I’m suggesting that I should be made aware of what is in that letter because my conversations with Mr. Elliot did not indicate any liability whatsoever…

Judy:  Uh.. may I ask Alan a question… were you receiving Puppy Referral calls?  During this time period?   Did you receive calls during this time period for a puppy?

Alan:  To be honest with you, I don’t recall receiving any phone calls from Puppy Referral…

Judy:  did you…

Alan:  … (inaudible) I was…

Judy:  … ok, go ahead…did you…

Alan:  I’d be anxious to know who the potential puppy buyers are that we supposedly received calls from…

Judy:  Did you ask the people calling where they got your name?

Alan:  I had no need to because to my knowledge I was not listed on Puppy Referral so there was no…

Judy:  Hmmm….

Alan:  … need for me to, to ascertain whether it was from Puppy Referral or whether it was from breeders.net  because based on my last conversation with you on Saturday, April 23^rd, you had indicated as well as the subsequent emails you had indicated to me that the puppy was not on Puppy Referral so I had no reason to believe the puppy would be on Puppy Referral.

Judy:  Uh… in a conversation with Ellen, it was around April 5^th… it was… it was all developed because you had two litters on the ground.  In a phone conversation with the Meyer’s concerning the double, the two litters…

Alan:  I guess I, excuse… inaudible)

Judy:  (inaudible)

Alan: … what I want to question that you said you were going to keep me to the point, how is this keeping her…

Lynda:  She’s… she’s presenting… Alan..

Alan:  …to the point, how does this go to the charges…

Lynda:  Alan…

Alan:  … here…

Lynda:  Alan… she’s present, let her finish saying what she’s going to say then you can say what you want to say, let her read the statement, ok?

Alan:  You’re only going to cut…

Lynda:  No, let make her statement, don’t interrupt…

Alan:  You’re only to cut me off, you’re not

Lynda:  … and I will let you…

Alan:  … going to cut (inaudible)..

Lynda:  … I will… get to you, not interrupting you… she is put.. ok, you don’t interrupt her.  Let her say what she has to say than you can say what you want to say and I won’t let her interrupt you. Okay

Judy:  They al… they said they always ask where they got the name so they will know which litter to refer them to.  And in an email… it’s a… if a individual indicates ..  always ask if they got their… got our name from Puppy Referral, we only mention the puppies that are listed.  If they mention breeders.net or a personal referral then we are free to mention each litter.

Alan:  That’s correct.

Judy:  … so… in a conversation to me you did state that you always ask the people where you got the referral.

Ellen:  When we’re on Puppy Referral.

Alan:  When…

Ellen:  When we are on puppy referral, that is correct… when we’re on…

Alan:  When we’re on Puppy Referral that would be correct.

Lynda:  Okay… um… I’d just like to interject your um… (inaudible) that statement… you were on Puppy Referral because you asked Linda Marquart to put you…

Alan:  I’m going to get to that…

Lynda:  Okay.. but… that’s going to contradict what you just said…

Alan:  Well…

Lynda:  You knew that you were on Puppy Referral, we did not.  We took you off of  it…

Alan:  Well…

Lynda:  …you knew you were on it, ok?  Yet, you had gotten a directive saying you could not re-list the puppy, you called Linda Marquart and then put, you put your  puppy back on…

Ellen:  No that’s incorrect…

Alan:  No, that,  that’s incorrect.  I talked to Linda Marquart as I tried to indicate to Judy, I spoke to Linda Marquart prior to learning that the Board had any issue with listing this puppy…

Lynda:  Ok…

Alan:  … after receiving…

Lynda:  (inaudible)

Alan:  No, let me finish please… after learning, after speaking to Judy that Friday night as well as some of the email, I had no other contact with anyone from Puppy Referral. 

Lynda:  Ok…

Alan:  (inaudible)  I did ask, I was not in an agitated state but I did merely state to Linda Marquart when I spoke to her that Friday night, I had said I had inquired were we… was our puppy listed?  She said no, it was not.  I had said… I went through the timeline with her… with… I guess I’m going into my portion here… I had indicated to her the timeline.  I had spoke to Debbie and left a, I’m sorry, I left a voicemail for Debbie on… on ... April 14^th, Thursday, April 14^th, um, and left a voice, voicemail indicating that we had received a male puppy back and needed to take advantage of the time remaining on our eight week listing and requested confirmation of when the listing was back on Puppy Referral. 

Judy:  What was the date?

Alan:  April 14^th, Thursday April 14^th.  On fri..   and, and I had told her that I received an email back from Debbie, on Friday, April 15 so therefore I know she had… that was confirmation that she had received my voicemail.  And all I said to Linda on the phone was um, I would like for you to… for this puppy to be listed for this weekend since I already had missed out on the prior weekend, I’m not sure why, but I would like for this puppy to be listed.  If you’d like I would recommend that you check with Debbie because Debbie does have the information and this from a prior litter in which case all of the clearances should still be on file.  And, and after that phone call that Friday night, that same Friday, I’m sorry… that Friday, April 15^th was when I mentioned to her that I received that email.  This conversation with her was on Friday April 22^nd.  Let  me just back up one day in my time line here, cause also on Thursday April 21^st I had again left a voicemail for Debbie letting her know that I had not received any confirmation one way or the other from her as to whether or not we were on Puppy Referral and… and that I… needed to know

Sherri:  What was that date?

Alan:  …if indeed we were on.  April 15^th.

(background inaudible Board talking)

Alan:  I’m sorry, you’re right, April 21^st.  That was the second phone call to Debbie.  The sec, the second follow up phone call to Debbie where I left another voicemail that Debbie herself even referenced some of the content of that voicemail.  On Friday, April 22^nd, prior to calling Debbie, I again tried, I’m sorry, prior to calling Linda, I again attempted to make contact with um, with Debbie at that point, no answer, I opted not to leave a voicemail at this point.  After hanging up with that, that is when I went and decided to call Linda Marquart to determine were we indeed listed and that’s when I learned we were not and I made the comment to her, we should be listed, I had let Debbie know back over a week ago and had not heard anything except I did have an email from her, um, asking about why the puppy was returned…

Rita:  What is the date of that email?

Alan:  The date of that email was Friday, April 15^th.

Board Member:  So, the…

Alan:   And the… in the email message just to be clear… I believe its very close to what Debbie has presented.  That email said in your message you stated that the puppy was returned, would you mind telling me why, is the buyer just a perfectionist, it would be nice to warn the others with puppies.  Okay… based on the contents of that email we had no reason to answer the email.   There was no reason to potentially prevent this buyer from purchasing another puppy and there was nothing in that email that referenced that that was a condition of listing this puppy.  No mention whatsoever that there was even any, that she had received any knowledge of uh, somebody making of,  (inaudible) where she had made mention that, that somebody had uh, told her about the puppy being returned and, and health issues.  Do you want me to continue with my whole… cause I’m willing to stop for questions…

Lynda:  No, that’s…(inaudible).. present it and then they can cross … (inaudible 

Alan:  (inaudible) continuing with the timeline… after getting off the phone with Linda Marquart, I contacted… uh… with the knowledge now that our litter was not listed, I contacted Judy, this was again Friday evening, April 22^nd… I contacted Judy to determine if she was aware of any reason that the litter was not listed.  It was at this time that it was communicated and I had mentioned to her that I had to spoke to Linda and that’s how I learned that it wasn’t listed, it was at this point that it was communicated that the Board had already decided that they could not list this puppy, and that a letter had been sent to us.  I told her I had not received any letter and I asked for the letter to be emailed to us since we had not received any such letter.  This telephone conversation was the first communication of any sort… indicating to us that our litter was being denied listing with Puppy Referral.  Um… Friday, April 22^nd, later that night, approximately 2 hours later I sent an email to Judy advising her that we had yet to receive the letter either in mail form or attached to an email.  As she had promised that she would send in our earlier telephone conversation.  Early Saturday morning, April 23^rd, around 12:11 in the a.m. we did receive an email from Judy referencing the letter from a prior puppy owner and a decision, as stated, a decision by the Board that they are hesitant to list the puppy due to health issues presented by the previous owner. As  well as potential liability to the Club.  There was a subsequent telephone conversation to Judy on Saturday morning, April 23^rd, as well as emails from Judy to us, April 25^th, a reply to Judy’s email on April 25^th and a final email from Judy on April 27^th.  But the only communication that we have had either with someone on the Board with regards to this… actually that’s exactly true, I do have one other thing to mention.  I did speak with Rita Monday night, April 25^th to uh… to talk to Rita to try to find out and it was at this point that I had learned from Rita that Judy’s comment or statement to me over the telephone that the Board had decided on this prior to her conversation with me Friday evening,  Rita had confirmed to me over the telephone that the first knowledge that she had of this issue was Judy’s email to us early Saturday morning, April 23^rd.  So, at that point it’s again evidence that the Board actually had not discussed this, that by Judy’s statement, um…(inaudible in background)  that by Judy’s statement that the Board discussed was not exactly accurate.  Okay… um… the first correspondence… this is, by the way, this is all in regards to just the first charge alone… that, what I’m indicating here… and the first correspondence from the Board that could loosely be determined a Board directive would have been the email from Judy at 12:11am on April 23^rd, Saturday morning.  After we had, well after we had talked to Judy was which again, after we had spoke to Linda that Friday night previous.  So again… we had no contact with Puppy Referral and did not attempt contact with any Puppy Referral individual prior to any… potential Board directive.  There was nothing that was indicated to us…

(Ellen inaudible in background)

Alan:  What.. um…

Ellen:  The contact with the puppy…

Alan:  The contact with the Puppy Referral volunteer was, was clearly prior to any potential Board directive.  Now to talk about liability since that again is referenced in this first charge… uh, it does clearly reference liability.  And for that I’d like to bring in Kirk Esmond as a witness.

Sherri::  Um… I do have a question about that… I think that the point of the liability was that was the reasoning that the Board used for not wanting the puppy to be listed, whether

or not…  (inaudible in background) whether or not it is um..

Board member in background :   True…

Sherri:  …true or not is irrelevant because that’s… the knowledge that we had and, and got no additional knowledge from us, information from anybody else (inaudible)…

Sherri:  …information that we, the information that we had was that the puppy had health issues, that’s why we issued the directive, it has no bearing on the charges of, of, of, not following the Board’s directive.  That’s my (inaudible)…

Alan:  Again, point of order, I’d have to, to point out, well, I said earlier, I, you know I was open to stopping for questions but it’s, we want to follow the procedure that you put in place and I guess I need to be able to go through my, present my entire case.  And then you can come back and…

Lynda:  Okay…

Alan:  …and to go uh…

Lynda:   Fine…

Alan:…the cross.  I mean… I, I guess I want to know, yeah, I want us to be consistent, which way would you like to present it?

Lynda:  We will be consist Alan but… the point that Sherri made is… that the liability issue is why the Board directive was set forth and… with… to the knowledge that the Board had was why it was done that way. 

Alan:  Well…

Lynda:  …and we had no contact with you saying otherwise, only that the liability that the Board made the directive according to what they could do… so… I don’t understand the reasoning for bringing your witness in…

Alan:  Well the reason…

Lynda:  … because we’re not addressing the liability…

Alan:  Oh, but the liability is referenced in charge number one… (Multiple Board members talking in background while Alan is speaking)

Lynda:  We’re not, we’re not addressing the health issues… that has nothing whatsoever to do with it, it only has to do with the liability part. 

Debbie:  Perceived liability

Lynda:  The perceived liability.  

Alan:  Ok, which goes to why I need to bring in Kirk as a witness…

Board Member:  No we’re not going to, (inaudible)…

Alan: … which goes to the perceived liability.

Sherri:  … has nothing to do with it.

Molly:  what was the date of the Club meeting that we had at your house Judy, where this was discussed and we voted, this was the right before … it was right in the same (inaudible)…

(Board speaking among themselves please listen)

Board member:  sometime in April…(inaudible)

Judy:  No, it couldn’t have been April the 19^th.

Rita:  Yes it was because that’s the date we approved the Western. 

Mollie:  …and we had the discussion of liability before we approved adding the statement from GRCA to our website.  (inaudible) .. the whole point was..

Alan:  What’s the relevance of this?

Mollie:  Excuse me

(Board inaudible talking again amongst themselves)

Mollie:  (inaudible) this is clearly stated at, by all Club members that this is what they wanted to be added so that, that our lib, the Club’s liability…

(Board members inaudible still talking in background)

Mollie:  …April 19^th was the date?   ok, thank you because I just wanted to make sure that we… this had been a discussion not just among the Board but with the Club.

Lynda:  All right, Alan?

Alan:  OK again… with the first charge talks about liability… we’d like to… well, quite honestly I don’t believe you have the ability to amend the charge at this point so therefore…

Many Board Members : We’re not amending it.

Alan:  Fine, then in order to present my proper defense of that, I would need to bring in my witness… I don’t believe you have the right to tell me if I can bring in a witness.  On the letter that you sent to me…

(Board members talking at once, inaudible)

Alan:  …it says I have the right to bring in any witnesses as, as needed.

Rita:  :  As it relates…

Another Board member:  As it relates…

Alan: … (inaudible) because the charge was…

(Board members inaudible talking at once…)

Sherri:  The charge is not that (inaudible)

(Board members inaudible speaking at once…)

Alan:  … specifically about liability.  I need to bring in Kirk to talk about liability, to talk about, because obviously the, the Club was making a decision and I have, in my conversation with Judy on, um, on my conversation with Judy both Friday night as well as Saturday, the question came up that there is liability to the Club or perceived liability to the Club because of the health issues of the puppy.

Judy:  May I say something, please…

Sherri:   May I say something, the actual charge says knowingly and intentionally, intentionally, violating a Board directive, that’s the charge.  That’s the charge. 

Alan:  Well…

Sherri:  Violating a Board directive, not anything to do with liability…

Ellen:  And by doing so…

Sherri:  … by doing do potentially causing liability against the Club.  That was the Board’s reason…

(Board members inaudible talking in background)

Sherri:  … for prohibiting the puppy listing.  It has nothing to do whether it was true or not, we voted on information that we had available.  We received no rebuttal information, we received no information at all about the puppy’s health.  It was strictly an argument on whether it should be listed or not, not whether it was healthy or not.  That is not an issue.  The issue was whether or not it should have been listed.  Period.

(Board members inaudible speaking in background)

Debbie:  And the charge is… that by violating the Board directive you caused the liability.  Which has nothing to do with anything else. 

Sherri:  Right.

Debbie:  It’s because you violated the Board directive.

Ellen:  (inaudible ) then how is, ok, how is violating a board directive... (inaudible) …  talked to Linda Marquart before any directive (inaudible) amend that now because we already proved that we talked to her beforehand.

Judy:  … I don’t think you proved that…

(Inaudible Board speaking amongst themselves and Debbie laughing..)

Mollie:  Excuse me but isn’t, isn’t in the Bylaws (inaudible) the Puppy Referral (inaudible) the Puppy Referral coordinator, not the volunteers…

Ellen:  No it does not…

Alan:  Show me where it says that because I do have that, actually within the Bylaws, what it actually states…

Mollie:   .. my question was, is that, I didn’t make the statement, I said is it…

Alan:  …Well, but it was confirmed by Debbie. 

Debbie:  That is the way it is always done…

Alan:  Doesn’t matter how it’s always done, it matters whether it’s in the Bylaws, we need to follow the Bylaws.   I think I’ve made that statement numerous times.

Judy:  (inaudible) that the Board told you this puppy was not going to be listed. 

Ellen:  (inaudible) was not listed

Judy:  That it was not going to be re-listed.

Ellen:  (inaudible) and it wasn’t listed

Judy:  (inaudible) you went to Linda Marquart and told her…

Alan:  I did not go to Linda Marquart …

Judy:  (inaudible)

Alan:  …after I was told…

Judy:  (inaudible)

Alan:  I went to Linda Marquart Friday evening and if I have to I will go back and get phone records…

Judy:  (inaudible) Alan… I have a letter from Linda Marquart saying that you called her, she does not say the time, um…

Ellen:  Then you can’t say  it was before or after.

Debbie:  Okay, we (inaudible)…

Alan:  Is that a notarized letter by any chance?

Board member:  No.

(Board members inaudible speaking in background.)

Lynda:  all the other stuff that…

Alan:  Well I’m not.

Judy:  But, let me just say this… in my conversation with you… it was a very agitated conversation with you um, uh, Friday the 22^nd… you said nothing about Linda.  You were upset that you could not get a hold of Debbie.  And that we should change the puppy Referral chairman because you couldn’t get a hold of Debbie.  And I told you at that time…

(inaudible speaking in background)

Judy: … we were reviewing… re-listing that puppy.  Uh, your right … that has nothing to do with…

(inaudible Board speaking in background)

Board member:  Okay. 

Judy:  I would like to for you to address the four (inaudible)  because I have an email showing that you did know about it.

Rita:  Okay.. Hang on a second, I have a question for Debbie… when was the litter originally (inaudible)… originally listed?

Pause

Debbie:  uh, February 19^th.

Rita:  So it expired…

Debbie:  April 16^th.

Rita:  April 16^th.  just wanted to review some dates because I think we’re getting a little confused.  We had a 4/5 Board meeting that we all were in attendance at…

…

Alan:  four twelve…  Board meeting.

Rita:  Okay, 4/12 Board meeting… (inaudible in background). Expired on four sixteen….  Okay, then we have 4/14 voice mail to Debbie requesting that the puppy be re-listed.

Alan:  I didn’t use the term re-listed.  I said renew the listing…(inaudible in background)  because it was still within an 8 week time…

(Board members inaudible in background)

Rita:  Okay, which means you were looking for 3 days… for, or…

Alan:  Well, I was looking for confirmation from Debbie with regard to how much time was actually left on her records so that I could then make the determination whether to list it, or as she indicated in her message, or did I need to pay an additional fee.  Yes, I do recognize we were close to the end, I wasn’t sure if my records co-incided with Debbie’s records.  And quite honestly, I didn’t bring my canceled check with me to uh, to prove what date…

Rita:  Okay…

Alan:  … but I think February 19^th sounds a little early. 

Debbie:  (inaudible)your check was written earlier,  because I don’t list them until I have it in my hand.

Alan:  Well, I would go by when it was cashed.

Debbie:   well that could be quite a bit later because by the time I get them to Rita, and she  gets around to making a deposit.

Alan:  But that’s, well…

Debbie:  You don’t want to wait that long to start your listing, (laughing) I’m sorry ..

Rita:  Okay, then we had a conversation with Linda Marquart on April 22^nd…

Alan:  Correct.

Rita:  Then you have a refe, a call to Judy… also on April 22^nd and then there is a Board directive issued on April 23…. Correct?

Debbie:  (inaudible) 23^rd at 12:01 a.m. on April 23^rd.

Alan:  If you want to consider that a Board directive, that was the first email or anything in writing that we had received was Judy’s email  at 12:11 Saturday morning , April 23^rd.

Rita:  Okay… so that’s the first formal point you received from this Board.

Alan:  and I believe I had mentioned those exact timeframes to you…

Rita:   … I’m just, I’m just making sure that everyone is talking…

Alan:  … in my conversation with you Rita…

Rita:  …because we uh…  …

Alan:  Without knowing that I would need to go back to them… Okay?  Are we back on my… well again, I’m… back to the point…

(Board speaking inaudible in background)

Alan:  …where the… the…

END OF SIDE ONE

Alan:  …there are two issues here… number one is the fact that on, on the first charge I spoke with Linda Marquart after, I’m sorry… prior to speaking with Judy on the, on the evening of April 22^nd, because I could not get through to Debbie and or Debbie had not returned my calls… so that’s why I contacted Linda and that’s when I spoke to Linda and I only have one phone call that I made to Linda.  I spoke to Linda and Linda did not indicate one way or the other whether she was going to list the puppy, she just took the information that I gave her.  And actually I believe she indicated she was going to verify that with Debbie which I said was fine.

Lynda:  You believe she said that you have nothing in writing…

Alan:  I, no, I had nothing in writing, I’m doing this from my memory.

Lynda:  Okay…

Alan:  My recollection.

Lynda:  Well we don’t have any…

Alan:  (inaudible)

Lynda:  …we don’t have anything to prove that that’s what Linda said to you, is that correct?  Other than your word.

Alan:  That’s correct.

Lynda:  Okay.  Go on.

Alan:  (inaudible)

Lynda:  I’m just clarifying that…

Alan:  Well, I, I’m just going (Lynda talking over Alan in background)  through with the timeline from my records…

Lynda:  Okay…

Alan:  I didn’t… to be honest with you, I did keep track of the timeline, my records, at that timeframe because I knew…from that I, that, that I may need to uh… fight the Board on the issue of not listing the puppy.  So I did keep good records at that point.   So… I did not contact Linda after that, I contacted Judy after that and then I attempted to get a hold of Rita Friday night but she was out of town, I contacted… I emailed Judy back later on Friday night to let her know that we had not received anything yet as she promised and then we received the email from her early Saturday morning and then there were some other conversations with email back and forth since then.  But no other contact with Linda Marquart or any other individual from Puppy Referral.  Or any other Board member for that matter except my conversation with Rita Fri uh, Monday evening.

Judy:  after what date, I’m sorry, what date…

Alan:  After… April 22^nd (inaudible – Board member talking in background) …is the last contact I had with Linda Marquart.

Judy:  And when was your last contact with the Board? 

Alan:  That would have been my email I believe um… replying on the 27^th after you sent me that my emails replying saying that we would forward that on to our attorney.

Judy:  … I thought you said …

Alan:  … That would have been my last one.

Judy:  you hadn’t talked to any one else…

Alan:  That’s correct…

Judy:  After… after.. the 27^th…

Alan:  I haven’t spoke to anyone else on the Board um, after Rita on the 25^th. ... (background inaudible) …With regards to what was going on making sure she was completely aware of the situation…

Lynda:  Okay, continue on…okay..

Alan:  Um… so again my… at this point I wanted to address the area in the first charge with regards to liability and also with regards to the fact that the decision that was made to not list the puppy in the first place which is what we’re all here about has to do with liability to the Club.  And… I honestly feel that we be afforded the ability to bring in my witness at this point.

Lynda:  Alan… at this point Alan…  the Board and I, the way I read the charge is that for, for violating the Board directive putting us in liability.  So Kirk has no point in coming in and there’s no reason to bring him in so I would say no.  We’re not talking about the health of the puppy, we’re talking violating the Board directive.

Alan:  Well then the word liability has no… has has uh.. no reason to be in that first charge.

PAUSE

(Board members speaking inaudibly in background)

Alan:  Right…

Ellen:  It’s part of the charge…

Lynda:  Okay (inaudible)…

Ellen:  (inaudible) and by doing so (inaudible) liability (inaudible) what they’re saying is pre, conduct prejudicial to the best interest of the Club.  (inaudible)…

Alan:  I guess my question to the Board and I’ll address this to you Lynda at this time because if that’s the case then what liability was being referenced by that charge.

Lynda:  It was a perceived liability with this…limited knowledge that the Board had when they sent, when they gave the directive.  We didn’t have knowledge of, of the liability. 

(Board members speaking inaudibly)

(everyone speaking over each other, inaudible)

Nancy: … what the perceived liability was at that time…

(Board inaudible speaking in background)

Alan:  Okay, let me ask you another question… why did the Board make a decision that… based on listing a puppy without coming directly… based on a letter from a puppy owner that without… to my knowledge, without any other veterinary report associated within there, just based on a letter why did the Board not come to us as the breeders and, and inquire of us and let us know we received information, we need to know more information about the return of this puppy…

Board member  (inaudible)

Alan:  …let me finish please… before they would make any decision with regards to listing a puppy due to perceived liability?

Lynda:  I think the Board did send you some, some questions asking you that.

Alan:  No the Board, no the only…

Lynda:  (inaudible) email that…

Alan:  …the on…

Lynda: (inaudible)   don’t, let me finish what I’m saying…

Alan:  You’re right… I’m sorry…

Lynda:   … um… the Board did send you a letter asking you what was going on with the puppy that we wanted some kind of  a statement from you, you said in an email to us that um… only you as the breeder would be allowed to give any  kind of a statement to anybody…

Alan:   Ok…

Lynda:  … that  the Board or puppy Referral people were not allowed to give anything only  you felt      yourself…  but you didn’t give us any information, all you stated was… that… you… would give out the information but you wouldn’t give us that information and you wouldn’t allow us to give that information to our puppy Referral people.

Alan:  That’s correct….

Lynda:  … so because of that, the Board chose to make the directive that they did because we had no information other than… the puppy buyer’s unhappiness. 

Alan:  He wasn’t…

Lynda:  … so what perceived (inaudible) liability…

Ellen:  The puppy buyer was not unhappy…

Lynda:  Beg your pardon?

Ellen:  The puppy buyer was not unhappy.

Debbie:  He returned the dog…

Judy:  :  He returned the dog (inaudible)

Allan:  That’s  correct,  he returned the dog.  But not because he was unhappy, not because of the, the way anything was handled and…

(inaudible, people talking at the same time)

Alan:  Don’t bring up to me that that’s…

(inaudible, talking at once)

Lynda::  … why I said that that’s… the Board’s… the perceived liability that we heard from him and we asked for information from you and did not get any… all we got was…

(talking at once, inaudible)

Alan:  Let her finish and then I need to ask a question with regards to that…

(Board inaudible)

Lynda:  … we asked for information from you… and said that if we didn’t get any these are the choices, this or that or… and we didn’t get any information from you, all we got was the information saying that… only you would give out the information that we will not (inaudible) you wouldn’t allow us to give a statement to our puppy Referral people and the last statement we got from you was no information on this puppy was… anything else you wanted to  know we would hear from your attorney.  And that as the last we heard from you.  We had no information coming from you whatsoever….

Alan:  … (inaudible) that you would hear from my attorney

(Board inaudible in background LOUD)

Alan:  … that I would forward the information to our attorney…

(loud inaudible talking)

Ellen  ….wait wait wait, that’s the only thing that we said, that we would forward it.

Alan:  Let me go back to your statement… so when was… when do you perceive, based on what you indicated to me… that the Board made the decision because I refused to give any information to be given out about my puppy by Puppy Referral because what was presented in I believe in one of Judy’s emails again was that…

Judy”   The Board’s emails… the Board’s…

Alan:  Well… I’m referring to… it came from you so I’m going to refer to them as your emails… that… if you’re speaking for the Board that’s fine, but I have to refer to what I have….

Judy:… Well…

Alan:  … from you directly.  As far as I’m concerned the, the Board is…

Lynda:  Alan…

Alan:  … made of numerous people, not just (inaudible)…

Lynda:  We need to move on and have you address all the rest of this… because you’ve been speaking twenty five minutes already and we’re only (inaudible)…

Alan:  Well… I, I guess we’re at the point now where… again… I, I…

Lynda:  (inaudible)…we need to get…

Alan:  …questioning  whether or not I  can bring in Kirk

Lynda:  No. 

Ellen:  (inaudible).

Alan:  Well, then  I need to (inaudible)…

Lynda:  … so let’s go on (inaudible)

Alan:… I need to outside and tell Kirk

Lynda:  Okay.

Alan:  … he can leave.  I’ll be right back…

PAUSE

Lynda:  …this isn’t a witness… its just a,,,

Alan:  Well, but you’re…

Lynda: …. statement… all we asked for, for in a statement was whether they referred the puppy and to who, that was all the statement is… (inaudible)  cross examine them.…

Alan:  And I…

Lynda:  (inaudible)

Alan:  … antagonizing the situation here but that I do want to point out, um, perhaps point of protest here from a stand point that earlier I had pointed during some of the testimony that was given um, against us, I had pointed out and questioning to you the relevance of which you told me don’t interrupt… but yet, when it comes to my point um, in terms of when I’m trying to present my case, I’m not being allowed to present it due to relevance of what some of the information um, goes to the uh, the entire case.  you know, it just happens that in bringing Kirk in for liability issues but, which now you’re saying there is no liability even though there is reference in the, in the charge but… I, I’m prepared to proceed even so I, I…

Lynda:   Okay Alan…

Alan:  … I just want it on record that…

Lynda:  Point noted…

Alan:  … I’m making a note of, of…

Lynda:  (inaudible)

Alan:  … and, as well as the fact that we’re not able to (inaudible)…

Lynda;:  …continue Alan because we only have this room until nine thirty and it is eight thirty five…

Alan:  Well…

Lynda:  ...and you have now been speaking forty minutes.  So let’s get on with it…

Alan:  Yeah and I’ll point out the fact there was no mention that there would be a time limit with…

Lynda:  Well…

Alan:  … and perhaps (inaudible)

Lynda:  Well… there’s a time limit according to how long you’re in a room Alan and this room is only here until nine thirty so… let’s move on…

(Board members talking inaudibly in background)

Ellen:  I have a question… with regards to  whatever you have from Linda Marquart… (inaudible) saying that there was coercion… so… (inaudible)… therefore we should have the right to cross examine (inaudible)   there is a witness and we are not being allowed cross examine, we have the right to cross examine (inaudible)… 

(Board speaking in background inaudible)

Judy:  … stating that ya’all re…

Ellen:  (inaudible)

Lynda:   (inaudible) we didn’t bring them in because we felt they were statements… they weren’t witnesses, they were just (inaudible)…

(Board speaking inaudible)

Ellen:  …  (inaudible) that is, that is a witness, then you have no witness for the coercion… There is no coercion.

Lynda:  We aren’t saying there was coercion, they weren’t  (inaudible)

(inaudible speaking of the Board)

Alan:  (inaudible) no I believe that’s one of the charges…

Ellen:   That, that, that’s a statement (inaudible)… you can’t… if you can’t  (inaudible)…

(Board speaking inaudible in background)

Ellen:   … you cannot use that... (inaudible) and as a witness (inaudible)

Board member:  Okay…

Lynda:  Okay, we (inaudible)…

Alan:  right, I didn’t feel I needed  to but you…

Lynda:  Okay we (inaudible)

Alan:  … you’re indicated that you’re using her as a witness but you’re using her by way of a letter… which can’t be cross examined.  Okay...  (inaudible)

Lynda:  All right…

(inaudible)

Lynda:  …one other thing…  Nine o’clock Alan…  we only have the room thirty more minutes after nine o’clock so… move on…

PAUSE

Alan:  Well, again… well… one of the things I want to point out, again, this may be uh… uh, I do want to point out the fact that Puppy Referral is simply that, it’s a puppy referral service… and regard, especially since there’s even the disclaimer on the website that talks that point, um, indicating that its for information only and its  DFW uh, the Dallas Fort  Worth Metro Golden Retriever Club is not responsible for the physical condition of the puppy which (inaudible) no liability to the Club.

(Board inaudible in background)

LONG PAUSE

Rita:  What was the date that the liability statement was actually put on the website, I know it was after the nineteenth when

Nancy:  right… we voted on it at the meeting, the membership voted to add it…

Rita:  …right…

Judy:  It was put on that night or in the morning…

Sherri:  It was, it was…

Judy: …it was up…

Sherri: …if it (inaudible) done that night or it was probably the next day, within the next couple of days anyway..  (inaudible) … can’t remember … (inaudible)

Rita:  okay, so this.. let’s all understand that liability issues were a concern that were being addressed by the Club…

Nancy: (inaudible)… directive that we (inaudible)…

(inaudible Board background talking)

Ellen:  No, wait (inaudible) directive..

(inaudible Board talking)

Judy:  … Puppy Referral… (inaudible) GRCA Puppy Referral…

Ellen:  What about them?

Judy:  The GRCA puppy Referral sent that directive to all Puppy Referral uh committee chairs.  And said that everybody should start putting this on their websites that, that’s a there a deep concern about liability to Clubs.

(inaudible speaking)

Board member…  add it to our website…

Alan:  When was the direct, when was this recommendation from GRCA?

(inaudible background speaking Board)

Judy:  Uh, that week.  It was that week it had just come out and that’s why it was just brought up at the meeting…

Lynda:  And voted on ..(inaudible)…

Alan:  Just out of curiosity was that, did that come out as a result of any discussion of this on an email?

Board member: NO no, the Board…(inaudible)

Alan:  Ok.. 

Rita: Can I ask one more question of Debbie? Debbie, can I ask you a question?

Alan: …This is, this is, I want to point out that as we continue with the questions (inaudible)to the time frame that you’re allotting (inaudible)…

Ellen:   Okay wait.. I have to say something (inaudible) the exact date Thursday or Friday  that we called her clearly before any directive (inaudible)…

Debbie:  okay, we already conceded that point…

Rita :  that’s why I went through the timeline…

Lynda:  okay, clarified (inaudible)

Debbie: … (inaudible)..  Board’s conceded

Ellen:  So that charge is now gone… so we don’t have to…

Sherri::  That’s to be debated…

Debbie:  That’s to be debated by the Board after you present your side.

Judy:   There were also phone call conversations with Linda Marquart…

Lynda:  Okay…

Judy:  …where she said…

Ellen:  (that’s in an email (inaudible)

Lynda:  … let Alan continue he has fifteen minutes…

(inaudible Board speaking)

Lynda: … fifteen minutes…

Alan:  Um, um…

Ellen (inaudible speaking)

Alan:  Ok, the second charge regarding the violation of the Puppy Referral guideline, contacting the Puppy Referral volunteer directly, coercing her into adding the puppy to the list without prior approval of the Puppy Referral committee.  As I had previously indicated, after more than a week had expired whereby we had not received any indication as requested, confirming or denying that the puppy was listed on Puppy Referral, that  was when we contacted the committee member of which again, the Bylaws state we’re able to contact the committee, it doesn’t say chairperson.  On um, Friday, April 22^nd, that Linda Marquart who was fielding calls for that week… according to the published schedule.  We did indicate to the committee member that we had a male puppy available, it should have been listed since our 8 week listing had not yet expired.  We also indicated that Debbie was aware of this since we had left her a voicemail.  Pursuant to Article 3 of the Standing Rules Pertaining To Public Information And Puppy Referral  Committee of the Constitution And Bylaws Page 23,  the Club members may notify this committee to list any litters (inaudible).  There is no mention or the single page letter that accompanies committee members, um, instructing them, there’s no mention that a Club member may not contact an individual committee member.  Again, after not receiving confirmation from the Puppy Referral chairperson as to the status after multiple requests, on that evening, April 22^nd is when we contacted the committee member Linda Marquart to inquire if the puppy was listed or not.  Regarding coercing the Puppy Referral volunteer, the legal definition of coercion… the use of a expressed or implied threat of violence or reprisal or other intimidating behavior that puts a person in immediate fear of the consequences in order to compel that person to act against his or her will.  As I previously stated, all we did was inquire if the litter was listed, upon learning that you did not have the puppy listed, I informed her that she should have received the information to list the puppy since I had left a voicemail for the Puppy Referral chairperson over a week ago.  And I had confirmation that the voicemail had been received since I received an email from the puppy Referral chairperson.  There were no threats made to the volunteer committee member that would indicate any form of coercion.  Regarding prior approval of the puppy Referral committee, since our 8 week listing was still in effect and nothing had changed with regards to our meeting the initial requirements for listing the litter, there was no expectation of any requirement of prior approval from the Puppy Referral committee.  The committee is made up of the entire volunteer members and not simply the chairperson.  Therefore we are well within our right as stated within the Club Constitution And Bylaws to contact any member of the committee directly. 

Charge number three… failure to disclose that the puppy was on the Puppy Referral list due to their violation of Puppy Referral guidelines.  Regarding violation of Puppy Referral guidelines… as I previously indicated there was no violation of Puppy Referral guidelines as we were well within our rights to contact the committee directly.  In our initial conversation with Judy Friday night, April 22^nd, it was indicated to Judy that we had just learned from speaking to the Puppy Referral volunteer committee member for that week that the puppy was not listed.  If we were intentionally violating any guidelines, why would we have brought this to Judy’s  attention.  Regarding disclosing that the puppy was on the Puppy Referral list… during our conversation with Judy both on Friday night, April 22^nd, as well as Saturday April 23^rd, it was pointed out by Judy numerous times that our puppy was not listed.  We had no reason to believe anything otherwise.  We were not receiving any telephone calls so we had no reason to believe we were listed after being informed via telephone and various emails that we were not listed.  We had paid for an 8 week listing, suspended the listing after 6 weeks.  The Club does not have the right to ask to remove the listing before the 8 weeks, and within 48 hours asked for the remaining puppy to be put back on the Referral.  Per the Standing Rule, a litter listing shall be 50 dollars per litter for an 8 week listing.  When the Club receives the required documentation and fee, for the listing, the Club is then contractually obligated to the litter owner for the full 8 week listing.  According to the Standing Rules, the listing is for 8 weeks regardless of if all puppies are sold or not.  There is no rule that states when all puppies have deposits that the litting.. listing is expired.  The Standing Rule states that it is an 8 week listing.  Out of courtesy, in the past, if the litter is spoken for, litter owners have contacted Puppy Referral but that does not nullify the contract and should a deposit be returned for a puppy or a puppy be returned during the term of the 8 week listing, um,  any other circumstances that could arise with regards to part of  the entire litter becoming available again within the contract period.  The listing is still valid and the Club is obligated to continue to provide the service of Referral on that litter until the term of that contract expires at the end of the 8 week listing.  If we indeed listed… if we were indeed listed, it was not our responsibility to perform the job of the Puppy Referral chairperson to check on a weekly basis when Puppy Referral volunteers turn over the next week’s volun, to the next week’s volunteer that all litters are available, older dogs listed on the service are being referred or the term of their listing is expired to remove them. 

Regarding number four… failure to disclose that they were receiving phone calls regarding the subject puppy as a direct result of the puppy being on the Puppy Referral list.  Again, and I believe I… indicated, but I’ll, I’ll ask this again of Lynda at this point… show me where in the by-laws does it state that the breeder or person listing the litter is required to disclose that they are receiving phone calls from Puppy Referral.  To my knowledge, there’s nothing in there that states that.  As previously indicated, during our conversation with Judy both on Friday night as well as Saturday, it is pointed out to Ju, by Judy numerous times that our puppy was not listed, we had no reason to believe anything otherwise.  One call that was received was even prior to this April 22^nd timeframe, we did receive a call from an individual who mentioned she was calling us, she was from out of town, she did not indicate that she had received a… I’m sorry… uh, was mentioned, who did not indicate that she received our name from Puppy Referral.  She did however, indicate that she had spoken with Judy Word.   Imagine… our surprise later on in the week when we spoke to Judy to learn that we were not on Puppy Referral but yet apparently we were still given, our name was still given out by Judy at that point to this individual.  Um…  incidentally , on this call, disclosure of the hernia condition was provided to the individual as confirmed during our Saturday conversation, April 23^rd with Judy.  While we don’t recall receiving any phone calls from perspective puppy buyers as a result of the, any puppy ref, of this Puppy Referral listing, since there was still time remaining on our paid 8 week listing, it was a valid expectation on our part that the subject puppy would be listed with Puppy Referral.   Disclosure of any calls as a result of  Puppy Referral listing is not a requirement of a Puppy Referral listing.  Sometimes we get calls weeks and months later from someone who got our name and, and number from Puppy Referral that were not, that they were just researching at the time, so to get calls even after a listing runs out is not unusual.

Number five… threatening legal action against the Board and Club for not permitting the subject puppy to be listed without full disclosure.  During our telephone conversation on Friday, April 22^nd with Judy, we pointed out that the Board’s actions were clearly violating the Club’s Constitution And Bylaws… during our telephone conversation on Saturday, April 23^rd with Judy, Judy indicates that I had supposedly threatened legal action against the puppy buyer.  And Ellen pointed out no, if anything he was mentioning it to, with regards to looking into any action against the Club to enforce our Puppy Referral listing.  So, so here again Judy... and Judy said no, it was only against the Puppy Referral buyer.  So we have Judy indicating at that point that there was nothing against the Puppy Referral buyer.

(Board inaudible in background)

Lynda:  Can you repeat the last statement Alan.

Alan:  Yes, I was indicating that… I’d be will, actually I’d be more than happy to repeat that when my timeframe is up, I want to get to my entire defense first.  Um… I did indicate to Judy during the Friday night call that we would be discussing with our lawyer and investigating possible action against the Board for making decisions and enforcing such decisions without accurate information that clearly violated the Constitution And Bylaws. 

(Board member inaudible in background)

Alan:  Since the Club had accepted and cashed our check for the 8 week Puppy Referral listing, the Club had entered into a business transaction, i.e. contract with us.  Contracts may not be amended or modified without the consent of both parties to the contract.   When the Board made decisions that violated the Constitution And Bylaws, i.e., the term of the contract, to prevent the listing of this puppy, they essentially became in Breach Of Contract.  And we were well within our right within this business transaction to consult with an attorney to determine what potential action could be taken to enforce the business transaction.

Number six… intentional harassment of Club members…. The legal definition of harassment…

Ellen:  (inaudible in background)

Alan:  Is that, that’s no longer a charge?  I don’t believe you…

Ellen:  (inaudible)  did not address the charge…

Alan:  …you had, read that charge and, and didn’t address that (inaudible)

Lynda:  I read the charge.

Ellen:  You read the charge but you didn’t (inaudible)

Board member:   I was certainly harassed.

Ellen:  (inaudible).. but.. but

Judy::  (inaudible)…

(Inaudible people talking at once)

Board member:  it’s one of the charges.

Judy:  Its one of the charges…

Alan:  Okay…

(Board members till talking inaudible in background)

Alan:  … the legal definition of harassment…

Ellen:    Hold it, (inaudible) have to prove the charge..

Alan:  Well they’re saying that the charge is there, so I have to defend it Ellen.

Judy:  Yes.

Alan:  Okay, the legal definition of harassment… to subject persistently and wrongfully to annoying offensive or troubling behavior.  Any contact that we initiated was to enforce the aforementioned business transaction whereby the Board was in Breach Of Contract.  The Club members that we had contact with in chronological order… Debbie Allen, Puppy Referral chairperson, we left an initial voicemail on Thursday April 14^th requesting that the puppy be put on Puppy Referral.  Attempted to follow up and may have left a voice mail on Thursday April 21^st after receiving no confirmation or status of listing.  Attempted to follow up and left no vo, voicemail on Friday April 22^nd.  Linda Marquart… uh, contacted once on Friday April 22^nd after receiving no status from Debbie.  Judy Word Club President, first contact was Friday April 22^nd via telephone after learning that puppy was not listed.  Single email requesting letter from Board that Judy referenced in the telephone call earlier that evening.  Email from Judy um, early Saturday morning informing us of the Board decision, replied to Judy’s email and copied the Board presenting our argument as to why the Board’s decision violated the Constitution And Bylaws.  Telephone call to Judy on Saturday afternoon whereby she refused  to speak with Alan, strange that a Club President would refuse to speak with a Club member regarding an issue that needed resolution.  Ellen spoke to Judy and tried to make Judy understand that the Club was acting unconstitutionally.  An email from Judy  Monday evening, April 25^th restating the Board decision and offering a solution that was still in violation of the Constitution And Bylaws.  The reply email to Judy and the Board Monday evening April 25^th, and an email from Judy on April 27^th indicating the final position by the Board and the reply email to Jordy, to Judy and the Board indicating we were forwarding the correspondence to our attorney.  Rita Robbins… attempted to contact Rita on Friday evening, April 22^nd and left voicemail.  Attempted to contact again and spoke to her husband and learned that Rita was out of town.  Telephone conversation with Rita on Monday evening, April 25^th attempting to point, to, out to Rita how the Club was acting unconstitutionally.  Terry Thornton GRCA Western Director… Judy indicated that Terry had advised the Board on the decision, several attempts to contact Terry on April 23^rd via telephone with one voicemail left to learn of the GRCA discussion regarding Puppy Referral liability. 

Okay… I just want to sum up um… within here.  We believe we presented very credible evidence that refutes each and every charge and indicates that these charges are without merit.  As we’ve indicated there is nothing in the Constitution And Bylaws to support previous actions already taken by the Board as well as the sustaining of any of these charges.  Based on the information presented in this hearing the Board should be voting to dismiss these charges that were preferred against us.  The Board made decisions based upon inaccurate information provided by the puppy buyer in a letter that was solicited of this puppy buyer by the President of the Club.  The puppy buyer voiced on numerous occasions to the President that he was not interested in filing any complaint about the puppy, the breeder , or in any way the situ, or the way the situation was handled.  He was simply calling to find another puppy.  It was indicated to the puppy buyer by the President that it was requested of us to provide full disclosure as to the condition of the puppy and we were not complying.  And that was why she required the letter.  I have already read you the email from Debbie and there is no mention of us providing full disclosure on this puppy’s condition.  We also understand that Judy discussed this situation on a national GRCA email forum for GRCA Puppy Referral, Puppy Referral volunteers, seeking their advice.  In her depiction of the situation she inaccurately described the size of the umbilical hernia, stating the hernia went past the sternum, stated that the puppy had a heart murmur and the second opinion vet confirmed a heart murmur, misquoted the vet um… again, could that be because she wasn’t there.  Inaccurately stated the circumstances and actions taken regarding the subject puppy by the breeders, inaccurately quotes the breeder, acting, actually using her own words, not ac, anything we actually said.

Lynda:  Two minutes.

Alan:  To say this information was probably what was presented to the Board when the Board made their decision on whether to list the puppy.  What is disturbing is that this Board made no effort to attempt to validate any of the information provided by sources outside of the breeder and the attending veterinarian.  This Board should have immediately contacted us to learn about the circumstances if they felt the need to do so.  We could have provided the health record of this puppy from the vet who is very well respected um, that most if not all the people in this room have used.  This report clearly states the size of the hernia which was actually only one quarter of the size Judy quoted to the GRCA Puppy Referral forum, which also is not a governing body in the GRCA…

Lynda:  One minute…

Alan:  …. And the report clearly states no heart murmur.  It also could have enlightened the Board that we acted, that we acted extremely ethically in this situation by offering to immediately take the puppy back after the first vet visit, the puppy buyer was not sure yet they wanted to return the puppy so we suggested they meet us and get a second opinion. 

Lynda:  Time

Alan:  That wasn’t one minute, I’m sorry…

Board member: ..(inaudible) .. looks like one more paragraph (inaudible, background discussion)…

Alan:   It should be noted, it should be noted that with, for the subsequent sale of this puppy we did pay the cost of the hernia repair for the uh, new owners… had the Board had all of this information I wonder if the same decision would have been reached.  In any case it should be clear that the Board did not follow proper procedure and investigate the facts as presented prior to making a final decision based on inaccurate information that directly violated our rights as stated within the Constitution And Bylaws.  We have presented and cited specific evidence that clearly indicates that these charges are without merit and that…. (inaudible) and that indicated that these frivolous charges are a product of actions and decisions by this Board that were made based on inaccurate invalidated information and clearly in violations of the Dallas Fort Worth Metro Golden Retriever Club Standing Rules um, with regards to Puppy Referral as outlined in the Constitution And Bylaws.

(Board talking inaudibly in background.)

Lynda:  ok, questions..

Rita:  I have one question and that is… do you agree that the Board asked you for supplemental information on the puppy?

Ellen:  No (inaudible)

Alan:  No,  I do not.  I believe, I, I again I’d like to point out the fact that… as of my conversation, prior to my conversation with Linda Marquart Friday night, or prior to my conversation to Judy, on Friday night um, prior to my conversation with Judy Saturday morning…

Judy:  I did not have a conversation with you on Saturday morning….

Alan:  I’m sorry, conversation with Ellen Saturday morning, there was no mention up till… up until the email from Judy on Monday evening, there was no mention of requesting any information from us with regards to the condition of the puppy, the information that was presented in the email was not indicated as such that it would be with regards to the listing of this puppy, the decision as whether to list, it was regards to that it was going to be used by the Puppy Referral volunteer to give disclosure on this puppy.  And yes I had a, a problem with disclosure being given um, on the puppy um, as I talked to you about on our conversation that Monday evening.

Judy: I’d also like (inaudible)

Alan:     Any disclosure, any disclosure with the, if the disclosure is given by Puppy Referral um, then that interferes with the marketing of our puppy.

Ellen:  I did tell Judy on Saturday that there was not a heart murmur found by Kirk Esmond… I told her that I never said anything about… I never called it a common umbilical hernia, we went through all that…

Judy:  I’m sorry, what was that?

Ellen:  I never said anything with regards to a common umbilical hernia, you kept saying its not a common umbilical hernia, I said  (inaudible) its an umbilical hernia.

Judy:  You told me it was a common umbilical hernia.

(numerous people talking)

Ellen:   … I did not say that.

Judy:  And if you  re…

(numerous people talking in background)

Rita:  So in your…

(inaudible in background)

Ellen:  I did tell Judy what was wrong with this puppy.  (inaudible)

Judy:  (inaudible)

Ellen:  I told her also to contact Kirk Esmond.

Rita:   In  your opinion… there was no attempt by the Board to reach an equitable compromise whereby you could obtain your original week and a half of litter listing….

Ellen:  Not according to the Standing Rules And Bylaws..  You cannot amend the Rules (inaudible)…

(Board inaudible in background)

Alan:  Hang on… ask the question one more time.

Rita:  In your opinion… do you not feel that the Board tried to come to an equitable compromise whereby you could get your additional week and a half listing, when we were looking for supplemental information on the puppy.

Ellen:  What does that…

(Ellen & Alan inaudible at once)

Ellen:   … what does that have to do with the charges (inaudible) can you tell me what charge that you are (inaudible)…

Rita:  Well, I’m looking… I would say number one…

Ellen (inaudible)…

Rita:  … because in my perception, you were given the opportunity for a resolution to this issue on April 27^th.

Alan:  Ok…

Ellen:   The charge though is that we violated the directive…

Judy:  And the directive…

Ellen:  … and the directive was not, there was no directive given as of the time that we spoke with Linda Marquart, we spoke with Linda Marquart …

Board member:   … Linda’s not no… that’s just, Linda was the start of this, so…

Alan:  Well… uh, I think its, what Ellen’s saying…

Board member (inaudible speaking over Alan)

Alan:   … what Ellen’s saying, she’s trying, you’re saying it had to do with charge number one, that we knowingly and intentionally violated the Board directive.  We had not received any Board directive until early Saturday morning which was Judy’s email.  So at that point our conversation with Linda Marquart Friday night, prior to speaking to Judy was not violating any Board directive.

Ellen  :  with Linda Marquart  (inaudible)…

Alan:  But… I will give you the benefit, I, I’m, I’m prepared to answer your question….

Rita:  Okay…

Alan:  You are asking me do I feel that a equitable compromise was offered to us in that letter on of, or the email from April 27^th.  Um…

(Ellen inaudible in background)

Alan:  …that’s okay, I have no problem answering it.  The… the is… the um, as long as it involved um, anyone from the Club other than us giving out information on the puppy, then, in my opinion it was not an equitable compromise.  However… I think it needs pointing out that we did not, and one of the reasons we did not take any, either of those options is because, because we were concerned we were no longer taking advantage of Puppy Referral at that point.  So it became a moot issue.

Ellen:  I don’t think it (inaudible)  information was given  (inaudible) to a Board member who then went on a GRCA forum… (inaudible)

Lynda:  This has nothing to do with (inaudible)…

(Board members inaudible in background)

Ellen:  Actually, yes it does.   The reason that it does is because you gave them, its a per, personal report, not information with regards to the puppy.

Lynda:  That’s hearsay.

(inaudible speaking at once, please listen carefully to tape)

Nancy:   … we would reveal only what you wrote for us.  We gave you that as an option here on the 27^th, a  disclaimer from you that was approved by the Board, we were willing to let you write up the disclaimer…

Alan:  And I opted not to(inaudible) consider…

Board member:  … give it, so it could have been…your disclosure not

(Inaudible speaking at once)

Alan:  … not to ask…

Board member:  …(inaudible) for you to disclose (inaudible)

Alan:  … okay, I opted for, I opted not to (inaudible) that, I also opted…

(Board speaking inaudibly in background)

Alan:  … …not to ask for money back from the uh, from the Club.

(Board inaudible speaking at once)

Lynda:  All right, I’m going to stop the discussion.

Sherri:  Do we get questions.

Lynda:   you get five minutes for questions and then we have to make the decision.

Sherri: I have a question

Lynda: ok

Sherri:   Alan, can you tell me within a reasonable number how many litters you’ve listed on Puppy Referral… over the years.

Alan:  How is that relevant?

Sherri:  Its,..i’ll get to that.. (inaudible)

Alan:  (inaudible) tell me…

Sherri:   … is it, is it… is it safe to say that ya’all have listed numerous litters with, with Puppy Referral… okay…

Alan:  Okay.

Sherri:  Have you ever called the volunteer who had it that week to get a puppy listed on Puppy Referral?  Have you ever done that procedure before?

Ellen:  We’ve never had a puppy taken off….

Alan:  Correct… I had no reason to, to (inaudible)

Sherri:   (inaudible) wait, wait, wait…the, the pup, the puppy was taken…

(speaking inaudible over each other)

Sherri: … the puppy was taken off because ya’ll, ya’all  relayed the information to Debbie and to Judy and I don’t know who else that you didn’t need the listing anymore

Alan:  Well, (inaudible)…

Ellen:  And again, out of courtesy, we have done that, and we have been asked (inaudible)…

Alan:   Time out…

Ellen:  Okay.

Alan:  Let’s just answer her question…

Ellen:  Okay.

Alan:  … your question was did we ever contact a Puppy Referral volunteer to put that on, and aside from this one instance that is the only time we have ever contacted a Puppy Referral volunteer to indicate that a litter to be listed because that’s the only reason in the past that we have ever had to.  Because typically we’ve gotten…

Board Member:  Thank you…

Alan:  …I, I’m…

Lynda:  You answered the question.

Alan:  Well, I don’t believe (inaudible)…

Lynda:   You answered the question Alan (inaudible)

Ellen:  The litter listing was 8 weeks…

Lynda:  …you said no you’ve never had to (inaudible) and that’s what she asked.  If you’ve ever done it before.  We don’t need any more detail.  Okay.  She asked if you’ve ever done it and you said no.  That was the question she asked, she didn’t ask for the details of why (inaudible).  Okay.  Any other questions?

Rita:  I have one more (inaudible)…

Lynda:  Okay.

Rita:  Debbie, since I am unfamiliar with puppy Referral and how it functions… are the listings typically for 8 weeks, consecutively?

Debbie:  Typically but we do allow them to take them off and put them back on.

Rita:  Okay, so that’s standard procedure (inaudible)

Debbie:  But they have always do it with me so I can verify that they still have time left.

Rita:  Okay… so, so okay… that answers my question.  Okay.

Alan:  Can I comment on that?

Lynda:  I don’t see any reason to she just asked a straight forward question.  She just wanted clarification of how Puppy Referrals work and she got the clarification.

Ellen:  And that’s what we did.

Lynda:  Okay, but she was just asking for a clarification.  There’s no reason to have discussion on it.  Okay… any other questions?   Comments?  Okay…

Sherri:  Uh, I have one more…

Lynda:  Okay…

Sherri:  , I’d like to ask Judy a question.… Judy, can you give us some uh, some of your reason, your background as to why you feel like you were harassed, can you give us some of those scenarios that, that that took place.

Judy:  Uh, yes…

Alan:  Uh, excuse me…

Lynda:  Alan

Alan:  That was not (inaudible)

Lynda:  We’re talking about one of the charges which is harassment, okay?

Alan:  Are you going back to presenting the case now?

Lynda:  No, she’s asking a question about what’s been presented, she’s asking a question about why (inaudible)…

Board member:  One of the charges…

Lynda:  …of this charge…

Alan:  Well, I, I have to say I object to…

Lynda:  Okay, thank you you object…(inaudible) quiet.

Alan:  (inaudible)

Lynda:  Okay…

Judy:  Uh… the first telephone I, call I got from them on (inaudible)…  Friday April 22^nd… uh… Alan screamed, hollered, threw a fit, I finally told him I would not speak to him anymore and would only speak to Ellen.  Uh… Friday night at 10:52 I got an email from him still waiting… uh, 4/23 at 12:10a.m. I got an instant message from him uh… must be put back on Puppy Referral immediately with time credited, uh… I sent him his letter on 4/23…

Lynda:  Okay… (inaudible)…

Judy:  … at 12:09 and then I got another email from him on 12:36, he called me on Saturday, I refused to speak to Alan because of uh, him being so belligerent on Friday the 22^nd but did agree to talk to Ellen and I did talk to her.

Lynda:  Okay  that answers the question.

Alan:  Do I have the right to cross examine that since that was now testimony?  Okay… um… first of all I guess, Judy I have to um… I have to take issue with and question you on the fact that on Friday  night when I talked to you, you had just testified the fact that you had told me you wouldn’t talk to me but you’d only talk to Ellen, actually you did talk to me that entire evening when on, on our phone conversation and I believe I ended the phone conversation, not you.  Um… the email and the instant messages that you reference I don’t again, based on what I indicated previously in terms of that being a, a transaction with the Club with regards to listing the puppy, I don’t, don’t believe that would be a form of harassment where all I’m doing is, is contacting you letting you know that we have not received the, the (inaudible) letter that you have indicated that we should be receiving.

Judy:  That’s not a question.

Debbie:   Ok, that’s not a question.

Ellen:  (inaudible) … did you not say that we would be receiving a letter?

Judy:  Yes.

Ellen:  That you would stay up all night if you had to…

Judy:  I said I would try to get it to you, I would stay up all night and I believe the letter was dated uh 12:09 a.m…. that’s like nine minutes past midnight.

Lynda:  So harassment can be as how it’s perceived by the person who is on the receiving end.

Ellen  (inaudible)

Lynda:    She perceived it as harassment.  That’s how she perceived it.  That’s her… she’s entitled to perceive it anyway she likes.

Ellen:  Did you  not state that  a letter had been to us and we will get the letter,  (inaudible)

Judy:  No, I di..

Alan:  (inaudible)

Judy:  … I didn’t say a letter had been sent to you…

Ellen:  You said…

Judy:  … I said the Board was working on a letter.

Debbie:  and that you had…

Ellen:  …(inaudible) and that a letter had been sent.

Judy:  No.  I said the Board was working on a letter… and it would be sent to you and I would try my best to get it to you and I did speak to Ellen Friday night  because she remembers this.

Lynda:  Okay.

Judy:  That I would try and get it to you before…

Lynda:   All right…

Judy:  ... that time.

Lynda:  end of discussion, the Board has 15 minutes to make the decision before we have to clear this room

(Board members inaudible in background)

Alan:  Sorry

Lynda:  We will (inaudible) in writing what the Board decides.  Thank you.

 (inaudible)

Alan:  I would like it on record one more time to note that um…

Ellen:  (inaudible) because we were not able to give any testimony with regards to liability…

Alan:  Right

Ellen :   … in charge one.

Alan:    … as well as the fact that the timeframe um, with regard to here there was no mention to us with regards to that there was a timeframe uh…

Lynda:  So noted Alan um… but realistically you took, realize that if we using a building, we are, our time is not unlimited.   And that should have been taken into consideration on your part too.  Thank you.

Ellen:  And the other thing…

Lynda:  Thank you.

Ellen:… (inaudible)

Lynda:  That’s all 

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